Rosary (Pixabay/Myriams-Fotos) Five hundred years ago, on Oct. 31, 1517, a massive, spiritual, paradigm shift took place. In fact, I love spending time inside old churches. Here are some reasons why. However, let's take the case of an adult, for argument's sake. Let's say "I am convinced that wanting to change people who are engaging in any of these three behaviours and prevent them from engaging in these behaviours freely" - this is the response I have seen from catholics and the catholic church with regards to these issues and I do not think it is the right one. Think of Jonestown; Lots of seemingly normal, middle-class people gave their lives to a man they believed was a messiah. The same is true of pregnancies that could threaten the life of the mother and that, if terminated, would contribute to the health of a human being without creating suffering for another human being (we know at which point in pregnancy the central nervous system develops to the point that a fetus can feel pain, before this point, you cannot reasonable argue that the fetus can suffer). The U.S. Navy reversed a controversial cost-cutting decision to suspend most contracts for Catholic priests, a move that would have canceled Catholic Masses at Naval bases in Southern California. Two thousand years ago in Galilea, society would not have allowed women to follow an itinerant preacher. I answered this. Of all Christianity...Catholicism seems the most genuine. Catholic theologians know next to nothing. If it is true that the marital act has two ends that are (1) ordered toward procreative ends and (2) are intrinsically unitive, then it is true that to violate that order is to violate the person, and therefore a disordered action. What twisted logic is this? G.K. Chesterton believed that often the first step for a convert is the decision to be fair to the Catholic Church. This is a hobby horse of mine but I do not claim it to be sound or scientific and I take your point. Pope Francis Declares That The Catholic Church Will No Longer Accept Donations Earned Via Capitalism. But the New Testament idea of faith is not simple; indeed, it possesses a breadth of meaning that has led to varying understandings, even within a single Christian communion. Yet...they did. Find more subreddits like r/Catholicism -- /r/Catholicism is a place to present new developments in the world of Catholicism, discuss theological teachings of the Catholic Church, provide an avenue for reasonable dialogue amongst people of all beliefs, and grow in our own spirituality. A man who considered that lying to me was not much of a problem as long as he was honest towards God. One of three people who were raised Catholic no longer identifies as Catholic. ... As a follower of Jesus, I can no longer endorse what the Scripture does not uphold. Help for abuse victims is available at the Childhelp National Child Abuse Hotline at 800-4 … To which my response is...duh. How was this possible if I had supposedly inherited my morals from religion and could not be "good without God"? Well, I know Jesus Christ rose from the dead. Since you deny the divinity of Jesus Christ, its consequences will follow, the virginal birth being one of them. And yet 3,000 are said to have converted that day. In these cases I find no moral argument in favour of focing said woman to continue her pregnancy. Two thousand years ago in Galilea, society would not have allowed women to follow an itinerant preacher. Because it's possible to have false opinions about morality? NOBLESVILLE, Ind. and even if it was not, it is only mentioned in parts of the bible that are recognized to have human authorship. Being male, however, seems not negotiable. Think about it: Immediately after Pentecost, these people aren't going off to far distant lands to preach the Gospel--they're still in Jerusalem. Poverty has existed throughout history. We can do a certain amount of it on our own, and we settle for that, but there are many examples of Catholic people who went way beyond what we can do on our own. Then they abruptly or gradually became men and women of heroic virtue. She is one of the best people I could have met and her advice was sound. But what if I say, "No they are not. One group is falling in love and getting married. Throughout my life, some of the best people I have met were and still are catholics. But the New Testament idea of faith is not simple; indeed, it possesses a breadth of meaning that has led to varying understandings, even within a single Christian communion. I am Catholic because I am convinced the Church is the only place I will find the fullness of truth and joy. New comments cannot be posted and votes cannot be cast, More posts from the Catholicism community. And if He's divine, then I'm comfortable taking His word on things, regarding the nature and existence of God, our purpose, etc. Like with any other issue in this world, the question "Cui bono?" The doors of the Church are always open to you, and if you ever sincerely need a listening cyberear or are sincerely seeking dialogue or an answer to something about the Church you don't understand, at least several of us on here would be open to that. Catholic Christianity offers the world the fullness of the Christian Faith. I do not think the difference between you and me is not that I believe people are good because they are religious. My mother, now 82, always saw me as one of her last holdouts and was proud that I tried to be a good Catholic. Priscilla_Ann March 10, 2007, 8:15pm #7. Divorcing was the best decision of my life. I do believe that there is a greater being with good intention, but I have a hard time saying that any one religion is 100% correct. Yet none of these attributes were retained as relevant to designate the category of humans from which cahotlic priests should be selected. > **Note: This subreddit is a support forum and not a … You are free to contest anything I have written here, I do not claim it to be truth but simply experience. You've certainly allowed your view of the Catholic Faith become a caricature that has been painted by your bad experiences. I had no idea growing up that we had 14 more books than we should have. I'd respond to these, but think it futile because of what I mentioned above. Now religion certainly does give people hope but that's not a function of human agency or a conspiracy. There's much more to respond to here, but I can very clearly see that your philosophical musings on Religion seem...rather juvenile. 2. The problem is that an "individual-freedom based approach to life" is not Catholic. Your argument is like saying that we should just kill abandoned children in order to solve the problem of abandoned children. Shouldn't there be just as many atheists suddenly becoming basically St. Francis (except without a belief in any God), if this is natural in humans? We cannot have this on our conscience, at least I cannot, and I think no Christian can either. Vyckie Garrison started No Longer Quivering to tell the story of her “escape” from the Quiverfull movement. Press J to jump to the feed. Yet I cannot deny the simple fact that family planning would go a long way towards solving all of these issues: poverty, illness and unwanted pregnancies. It is as if I have been abandoned by the Church I knew and love. Saying that poverty has always existed and will therefore always exist is a logical fallacy and it puts many people at risk. The signs of … Like none. Shows total ignorance of the fundamental difference between then and now as far as the progress in medicine, agriculture, technology and many other fields is concerned. The Pope is devoid of fun . Furthermore, even if there had been women amongst Jesus' followers, the male evangelists would certainly not have found it necessary to mention them. We know of Mary, the Mother of Jesus. Sure, the existence of persons is a necessary condition of the possibility of social ills, but acting as though abortion and condoms would solve that is like saying that we ought to just shoot all elephants to stop elephant poaching. Okay. Yet I cannot deny the simple fact that family planning would go a long way towards solving all of these issues: poverty, illness and unwanted pregnancies. The twelve were with him, 2 as well as some women who had been cured of evil spirits and infirmities: Mary, called Magdalene, from whom seven demons had gone out, 3 and Joanna, the wife of Herod’s steward Chuza, and Susanna, and many others, who provided for them out of their resources. I met catholics 'in the field', however, who were relentlessly helping the poor, taking care of the sick and providing a new home for street children. I agree with that last part a lot. The other half is frequently using the hashtag #ForeverAlone in their tweets and Instagram posts. Leaving is painful. Literally nobody famous is Catholic . The Merriam-Webster Dictionary definition of "lapsed" in relation to "lapsed Catholic" is "no longer believing or following the teachings of a religion". The level of sophistication required to pull off this kind of thing is WAY beyond what an Iron Age people could have pulled off. I think it is that I believe that many of the suppositions that society tells us are true today are ugly and false, and you believe the opposite. This is a funny joke but it's not only persuasively useless it probably turns off a sincere pursuer of truth to the idea of taking seriously he who utters it in earnest as a response to OPs question, I want to address the last part of your post; your last question: "Wasn’t it all just fabricated to control or give hope to people?". If we are all free to develop our own morality, then you cannot tell me I'm wrong. Yes, I give you the other part, this is personal opinion. Also, you're playing both sides here. /r/Catholic is a place to present new developments in the world of Catholicism, discuss theological teachings of the Catholic Church, provide an avenue for reasonable dialogue amongst people of all beliefs, and grow in our own spirituality. told me Jesus never existed because there isn't a body. Catholics apparently contribute to poverty, overpopulation, etc, because we don't agree with birth control, but we are also simultaneously opposed to the "life-giving power of the female"? I believe Catholic Christianity to be true, because after doing a lot of reading, asking questions, and conducting a general examination of the matter, I believe it to be the most coherent and authentic sort of Christianity, and the one that offers the best chance for the salvation of its believers. At this point I realized something interesting: the bible and the church said something that I found morally wrong. The fact that this horribly, scandal ridden, corrupt organization of incompetent old farts survived 2 weeks after the ascension is proof God is behind the church. I was a very faithful catholic and did everything I was supposed to do but I am in total agreement with you about your assessment of this faith. I will allow someone with more time and knowledge to explain Catholicism in particular. Over time, NLQ has developed into a … 5. If Jesus is not bound by the laws of nature (calming the storm, walking on water, establishing the Eucharist, forgiving sins, resurrecting), then why on earth would he be bound by the laws of society? In 2018-19, 47% of Latinos identified as Catholic. It certainly is appealing but groups of people can make big sacrifices because they have been deluded or conned. In addition to being male, all disciples probably wore sandals, had long hair and were circumcised. Breadcrumb Trail Links. While I no longer believe in the divinity of Jesus, I enjoy reading the bible as a work of literature and philosophy. They were regular folks (St. Ignatius of Loyola is a good example, pre-cannonball). The word itself says nothing about the state of that woman's hymen however. In any case, you've got my upvote, because in the very least you'll be providing a fun discussion. That’s down … Sorry, I didn’t word that very well. That’s why I’m Catholic: because I believe Catholicism is true. This was child's play and I am in no way suggesting that I would have really wanted to become a priest at a later stage in my life. Catholic Christianity offers the world the fullness of the Christian Faith. The reason I wanted to share this journey with you is because I think that being religious and following religious doctrine does not absolve us from developing our own standards of morality, our own set of rules that we want to govern our lives in a democratic society. After my separation, I started reading more and more about some of the issues that didn't make sense to me with regards to religion. In May 2005, protests over Marymount Manhattan College’s May 20 commencement address by pro-abortion Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton led to a dispute over whether Marymount is Catholic. One could not grow up Catholic and not be familiar with the crucifixion narrative in which it was women at the foot of the cross as all the men but John fled. Had He wanted to do so with respect to female priestesses, He could have done so and would have had precedent in His own actions (breaking with customs) and in the cults of the Greco-Roman world, which had separate cults for women over which presided women. Encouraging family planning in poor countries is a prerequisite for this. In May 2005, protests over Marymount Manhattan College’s May 20 commencement address by pro-abortion Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton led to a dispute over whether Marymount is Catholic. Lapsing is thus not necessarily connected with a lack of belief. This has blown out of proportion a bit, I was not expecting that many comments and have trouble keeping up, especially with longer contributions, as I was typing mostly from my phone. However, you cannot weigh the concerns of existing human beings against the concerns of potential human beings. As far as the last point is concerned though, I never said that the root cause of social ill was the existence of persons. 2352 By masturbation is to be understood the deliberate stimulation of the genital organs in order to derive sexual pleasure. Sure, the existence of persons is a necessary condition of the possibility of social ills, but acting as though abortion and condoms would solve that is like saying that we ought to just shoot all elephants to stop elephant poaching. Any other institution that lost one-third of its members would want to know why. Many years later, after several discussions with theologians, priests and laypersons, I still do not understand the arguments against ordaining women. There seems to be a strange dichotomy among young Catholics. Male authorship, rather. The host of "The Sean Hannity Show" revealed in a clip shared with The Christian Post that despite attending Catholic school for 12 years, he is no longer affiliated with the Catholic Church due to “too much institutionalized corruption” that has not been “rectified.” It is not naturally possible for humans to do that - this is immediately obvious to anyone who has tried to be virtuous! So I can only assume that it must have broken his heart when he sat me down for a talk that day. We know of Mary, the mother of James and John. Just like many preventable diseases, which, at the time, were not preventable yet because we had not developed medicine, vaccines or other preventive measures against them. I just do not believe in God anymore. No Longer Catholic It is becoming increasingly difficult to find a good Catholic college these days, particularly because so many Catholic colleges are Catholic in name only. Catholic Christianity offers the world the fullness of the Christian Faith. Of course, if your definition of being moral is "following religious precepts enshrined in catholicism" then you have a wonderful circular argument. A mismatch between needs/requirements and available resources is the root cause of most social ills and if you increase the number of people and by consequence their needs/requirements without increasing the resources, you create less well-being, not more. What's the standard? Why I am no longer a catholic. LilyM: I think you misunderstood that post. This does not mean that this morality is arbitrary, it is all but. The virginal birth is a logical consequence - or a logical part - of the Incarnation. "We don't want your dirty capitalist pig dollars". From the Catechism of the Catholic Church: Offenses against chastity. And yes, the 'virginity' of Mary was likely introduced in the bible through a translation error; and even if it was not, it is only mentioned in parts of the bible that are recognized to have human authorship. 3. And yes, the 'virginity' of Mary was likely introduced in the bible through a translation error; Only if the Bible was not inspired by God. What about them was heroic virtue ? G.K. Chesterton believed that often the first step for a convert is the decision to be fair to the Catholic Church. I have Catholic friends who are devoted to God — they are pillars in our community. Over time, NLQ has developed into a … What makes this religion the correct religion? Thirdly, Mary had to have been a virgin or else God did not really become man in the Incarnation (Jn 1.14), nor did God give us His own Son, but someone else's. ), we would finally stumble upon the main assumption on which the church is founded, i.e. This admits many serious implications, primarily that Jesus was secretly a chauvinist at heart and bound by the laws of society. You cannot write them off as "crazy" because the DSM-V does not have a diagnosis for "suddenly became able to love one's neighbor as one's self". Who are you to say that your moral standard is better than mine?". Catholicity (from Ancient Greek: καθολικός, romanized: katholikós, lit. A man who frequently quoted the bible to illustrate his idea of the place of the wife in a good marriage. Catholic Christianity offers the world the fullness of … The Church's position on all of them flows from other points (the goodness of material reality, the value of human life, the end of man, etc). – Guerin Catholic High School says the students who appeared in a social media video brutally mocking another student are no longer … LinkedIn. Help for abuse victims is available at the Childhelp National Child Abuse Hotline at 800-4 … Literally nobody famous is Catholic . Jesus broke with social norms all throughout the Gospels. I am convinced that condemining people for engaging in any of these three behaviours does NOT make me a better person. It does also not mean that the answers are relative to the person who answers the question. I can only provide anecdotal evidence to you that you can discard as you wish: personally, I have found that my behaviour is overall more responsible, more altruistic and more conducive to my well-being and that of the people around me now that I have to make ethical decisions that are no longer based on the pre-defined answers provided by religious doctrine. We know of Mary of Magdala, the woman who had seven demons cast out of her and became a devout follower of Christ. I travel a great deal to Africa for my research. I think that the Bible is a great moral guide to life if nothing else. I am sorry you have experienced a lot of pain, brokenness and suffering and misunderstanding in your life, and that you have such anger and bitterness towards the Church and don't see the beauty, life, and truth in her or in her sacraments and teaching. Sadly, in past 20 years or so, the Catholic Church has moved so far from Vatican II that I can no longer feel a part of it. Abortion and condoms do not aim to "solve the problem of the existence of persons", they aim to improve the quality of life and the well-being of existing persons. That they cannot be priests does not diminish their womanhood anymore than men not becoming nuns does not diminish their masculinity. How to we judge morality? Where did you get the idea that condemnation is the response you're supposed to have as a Catholic? Does that mean that the churches position on these issues is right because it flows from other points, which in turns are based on assumptions that cannot be corroborated by evidence? Illness: we all know how HIV spreads and we know that using condoms can prevent the spread of HIV. This is my last post on this thread, I promised you an answer and this is what I can offer. We know of Mary of Magdala, the woman who had seven demons cast out of her and became a devout follower of Christ. They may have undergone a formal process to join another church or faith though. I have to add that I have never had a literal reading of the bible and always thought of it as more of a metaphor and a guidance than a historic account of real events. This is an excellent explanation. I have since found out that the Catholics have a different bible! That’s why I’m Catholic: because I believe Catholicism is true. If Catholic Online has given you $5.00 worth of knowledge this year, take a minute to donate. You're confusing a necessary condition of the possibility of X with the root cause of X. OP- this seems like a good guy to dialog with if you are actually interested in dialoguing. Well, kid, that's how resurrection works. Like he’s even written a single book. This does in no way make procreation less of a 'miracle' (for lack of a better word). There are photos of me playing dress-up, I had converted my desk into an altar, placed a bible and a huge candle on either side of it, I was wearing a scarf as a stola around my neck and shoulders and trying to look very ceremonial and serious on the photos. Ireland is different from the Anglosphere because its pretty debatable whether we’re actually a part of it at all. After Catholic Church sex abuse cover-ups, we in the pews must no longer simply pray & pay Disappointed and angered once again by the Catholic Church, we … Yet I remember this incident as the first time I saw a wall raised up in front of me for no other reason than my gender. When I was about 8 years old, I wanted to become a priest. The idea that the Fall has such an effect that we cannot even know or do what is moral without being Christian is a Protestant idea, not a Catholic one. In addition to being male, all disciples probably wore sandals, had long hair and were circumcised. Clearly, I seemed to have another standard against which I was judging these things. At the same token, you would not listen to being told you were wrong. Any other institution that lost one-third of its members would want to know why. Interpretations. The. 2. Being male, however, seems not negotiable. How do you explain it? Cognitive dissonance worked well for a while, but I kept stumbling against this wall, this part of my brain that seemed to be detached from my otherwise feminist and individual-freedom based approach to life. Beyond that conspiracies tend to be...leaky. So clearly, virginity is something that matters to men and not God. You are free to condemn me or disagree with me. Today I am in a healthy, well-balanced relationship. Vyckie Garrison started No Longer Quivering to tell the story of her “escape” from the Quiverfull movement. A conspiracy that vast and sophisticated would have required sciences and disciplines that didn't even exist until the eighteenth or nineteenth century. Over the last few years, it's become increasingly clear that there's no longer any place in Roman Catholicism for any but the most conservative and doctrinaire members. I simply wanted to give witness and show that there are other reasons to leave the catholic church besides the recent pedophilia scandals that have horrified so many of us. Today's Saint of the Day is St. Rufus. You may put forth the argument: some moral stances the catholic church is defending are bad for human beings. If it is true that a human person is conceived during the marital act, then it is true that that deliberately ending that human person's life is murder. Here are some reasons why. When I was about 8 years old, I wanted to become a priest. The liturgy — spoken in an ancient language no longer in modern vernacular usage — places all power in the hands of the priest. So can abstinence. We know of Phoebe, a deaconess. Birth control is an affirmation of individual freedom and a rejection of the idea that the female should be reduced to the role of procreation. Every single word in the Bible was written by a human. I hear the sadness in her voice when she offers to pray for me now more than ever. News; Local News; Laptops for all means school closures will no longer interrupt learning across Catholic school board. is relevant in order to analyse the current behaviour of the catholic church. This argument makes no sense whatsoever, the conclusions simply do not follow from the premises in any way, shape or form. In 2018-19, 47% of Latinos identified as Catholic. I trust each of you to find an answer to this question. The Oxford American Writer's Thesaurus associates the term "lapsed Catholic" as one who is backsliding. It is easier to say "homosexuality is immoral because the church says this and the bible also states it in verses XYZ" than to actually sit down and think hard about what you think of homosexuality and find an answer to whether or not it is immoral based on the harm that different outcomes inflict on different parties involved, the rights of different individuals concerned and other relevant factors. : developing our own standards of morality, our own set of rules that we want to govern our lives in a democratic society. Like he’s even written a single book. Most people donate because Catholic Online is useful. Edit: Thank you all for your responses. 02/28/2012 06:03 pm ET Updated Apr 29, 2012 There are so many perspectives on the Obama/Catholic Church contraception debate that it is hard to keep track. These are the concerns of a secular modernity to which the Church must respond, sure. Technology, medicine, food, capital and all other resources we require to put an end to poverty are already in existence. the existence of God. I notice also that you don't provide any actual arguments for why these three acts are acceptable, merely that your "individual-freedom based approach to life" clashes with them. What is bad is not the children themselves, it is the fact that people are forced to have children that they did not choose to have or which they cannot care for. The other half is frequently using the hashtag #ForeverAlone in their tweets and Instagram posts. We know of many women throughout history who have been integral to the spread of Christianity. Today, the cards for ending poverty once and for all are in our hands. Yet none of these attributes were retained as relevant to designate the category of humans from which cahotlic priests should be selected. Luke tells us that there were women who discovered the empty tomb Sunday morning unlike any! 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